Homosexuality, the Bible, Dr. Laura and a Very Funny Letter
From Cape Town Lesbians
Ever get tired of people throwing Bible verses at you, and using religion as an excuse for condemning homosexuality? Well, this is something I came across many years ago, and I still laugh every time I read it.
On her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It’s funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination… End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan.
James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus Dept. of Curriculum,
Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia
NOTE: There is some discrepency regarding the authorship of the letter.
Filed under: Atheism, Favorites, Featured, Intolerance
Anyone reading this lives in the USA? I don't, otherwise I'd do this … phone up some of the 'Bible Answers' radio shows and pose these questions one by one, in a serious and respectful manner. Maybe re-phrase them so you don't give the game away at the beginning. Record the call. Of course, the radio station will never broadcast your question and their response (if any). It'll be edited out, that's for sure. But you've recorded it. Then put all the recordings together as a compilation and post them on the internet. I'd love to hear it!
This is actually a quote from Martin Sheen's character on the West Wing. Still very apt but something that a Christian or Jewish zealot would simply ignore if asked by a non-believer.
Nice letter, I want to translate this letter to spanish, how I contact the author, to ask permission?
Fantastic! Thanks for reposting. Make it an annual addition.
The letter was written by: James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus Dept. of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia.
However, I don't think translating to another language would be a violation of 'Fair Use' or require permission provided you give proper attribution to the author.
Here's a link to Fair Use on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
Absolutely!
you can translate it into spanish via http://www.microsofttranslator.com/Default.aspx
just copy and paste the letter and choose spanish
Funny, but I some would say that Jesus came to abolish the “old law”. I think there’s something in the NEW Testament where Jesus says something about establishing a new law. I’ve heard Christians refute your points, using that premise.
The New Test has many things that are just as silly. Besides condemning gays, it also says women aren’t allowed to speak in church & there are many female preachers.
I was once a born-again believer in all the Bible. Now I’m a gay atheist!
This letter was not written by Dr James Kauffman. See
http://www.yuricareport.com/Parody%20and%20Humor/...
Thanks! I posted your link with a note at the bottom of the post.
I would just like to let the author know that I am Canadian and for the right price it's OK to own me .. unless of course it's to use me to participate in gay sexual relations, plant more than two crops in one field, have sex with a woman while she is menstruating, of course I can't work on the Sabbath (that's a given), you may not feed me shellfish or play any sort of football (that's why we play hockey up here).
I asked some Christians I know if they were in the market for a Canadian. But the football restriction was real deal killer. But, then again, I think they might have been closet gay Republicans. I'll keep looking…
Spanish is my native language, no problem translating, I only need to find a spanish bible in the net for the citations.
[...] un comentario Publicado originalmente por Cape Town Lesbians (”relinkeando” de el Daily Atheist), traduzco para mis escasos lectores los argumentos acerca de lo que dice la biblia acerca de la [...]
Ready. Spanish version available in my blog: http://tinyurl.com/yj4rnpl
It's a shame that so many people display such arrogance in their ignorance of Biblical law.
I wish I could respond to this assinine argument, but space is limited. Anyone who is interested in an intellectually honest to this gibberish may email me at succmgmt@aol.com
If you have any ideas how to publically post an answer (it's lengthy) by all means suggest it.
We really don't want a 'lenghy' reply Chayim. We've all heard it 100 times.
We are intelligent people who have made up our own minds, that we can actually get along with others without being told how, who or why.
This post was merely designed to highlite this, and the fact that we find some religious beliefs (and some of those who tout them) to be risible.
Dave
So you "say" you were a Christian? http://bit.ly/ui3eH
Dave, did you know that if we are as you stated it, "intelligent people" that you just confirmed the Holy Bible? In fact, anytime you use logic and rational thinking you confirm the Holy Bible as true.
Beyond Doubt – Christianity is True – Atheism is False http://bit.ly/5vtvvF
Chayim, send it to me. http://findingtruthtoday.org/EmailUs.aspx
How can someone not be completely embarrassed at posting something like this? Sort of "too silly to realise how silly what I've just said is…"
im canadian as well, but i wont participate in any weird things
Gar, Whose Definition of 'Good' do You Use?http://bit.ly/bv3zmb
I know, Dave, you're not interested in a lengthy reply. You only want the one-liners, the sound bytes, the John Stewart type jokes that you can pretend proves your point — if only we don't look too close.
You're so intelligent, you've already made up your mind without the need to hear the other side of an issue. And you know you've already heard it a hundred times, because… well, because you're so intelligent.
Very intelligent.
"Don't confuse me with the facts, I've already made up my mind."
Poor “GospelToday” is a perfect example of the typical Programmed Religious Robot who has NO more clue they were and ARE programed than does a trained flea.
IF they had a CLUE, they would KNOW many of the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of FORMER Christians who are NOW Atheists said the SAME BS GospelToday
is saying BEFORE the DE-Programmend themselves.
And IF GospelToday was the least bit rational,
he/she/it wouold KNOW the ONLY reason he/she/it is NOT A Moslem is because of WHO RAISED them.
AND the ONLY reason GospelToday does NOT believe in MANY gods is simply because he/she/it was NOT raised by Hindu’s!
Last, here is NO rational, intelligent or a logical reason to waste time responding to a PROGRAMMED RELIGIOUS ROBOT like GospelToday as it is a total waste of time and it will be until he/she/it decides to open it’s poor little mind
and look at the facts which he/she/it presently rejects.
The poor thing’s mind is so befuddled by it’s programming, it is incapable of rational and logical thought on the subject of it’s religion.
Hey echt tollen Weblog betreust du. Ich selber habe auch vor kurzem eine eigene Seite hochgeladen, nähmlich eine Suchmaschine. Momentan noch zu finden unter http://beta.jerome.de . Währe schön von dir wenn du mir sagst was du von ihr hälst und was noch verbesserbar daran ist. Ein Design kommt erst im laufe der Woche noch dazu. Vielen Dank – 345zhf4
Neil C. Reinhardt, your self-insecurity, lack of self-confidence and low self-esteem really shows through when you belittle people and even more so when you call them names and bullying. Your putting your own self suppression of emotion and listlessness upon others is something you really need to address before you go into a deep depression.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying
Here’s a couple of links you can go to and read about some ways you can obtain help to gain more self-confidence and get over your anger so that you will not be as insecure as you are now and can live a more productive and happy life.
Are you angry?http://www.intouch.org/atf/cf/%7B7048F59B-0DA1-4C...
The Landmine of Fear:http://www.intouch.org/atf/cf/%7B7048F59B-0DA1-4C...
The Convections We Live By:http://www.intouch.org/atf/cf/%7B865500FE-874B-48...
My prayer to God for you Neil is for your salvation. In Jesus’ name, AMEN!
Very nice and helpful information has been given in this article. I like the way you explain the things. Keep posting. Thanks. . .
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?
From the oh so profound letter above to Dr. Laura :
This point no. 7 should speak volumes of the author's depth; all his other so wise observations are equally commendable, including his sign off "Adoringly" ! What fine character ! So fine , and humble that he or she puts on someone elses identity
In the face of such erudite wisdom, I quail to put in my two bits worth but still :
The Bible is not for the love of Mike or who ever, it is so that we may connect with and love the Lord Jesus Christ who died on a Cross and whose greatest commandments are "Love God and Love others as You Love Yourself ".
If you are already reasonably clear about the meaning of love, and do love yourself while loving others as you love yourself , then you do not need God. Else, people like me, need God. If you adore Him, you will find yourself happy with yourself and happy with others, loving yourself and loving others, adoring yourself and equally adoring others. Keep the faith and try this. Or else you will only be signing off "adoringly" when you know full well how fraudulent you are.
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?
The Bible says do not call another a fool, but …. ? !!! Wiggle away, squint et al !!
Please remember the Bible teaches that we hate the sin not the sinner.
Love Others as You Love Yourself : Others includes the homosexual, the murderer, the liar, . And Yourself /Myself are/am as much a sinner as anyone of them.
Do not then hate yourself or the others, Love them, as you love yourself. Too difficult for me by my strength, but I believe as I love God first, He enables me to do what I cannot do by my own strength.
Yohan John Kunnenkeril, John Ten Ten
I find it ammusing that all of the Christians are taking an angry stand point. You cannot refute what is clearly in the bible. They were taken from the book you hold as truth. I will however defend you all by saying that the bible has been translated and recanted with he said, she said (no wait women were not allowed so we wil stick to he said to keep it simple) so many times that it isn’t even close to the truth if it ever was at all. I do regret however by defending you all I have just proven another point to why we choose to not accept your religion as the truth. Perhaps I shall burn in hell but what if hell is a metaphor for something more internal like regret or remose. Or perhaps it. Is just burning in flames but I don’t want to get too deep about it all.
Patricia,
I’m not sure who you are talking about taking an “angry stand point” in your comment? The Holy Bible cannot be refuted because it is absolute truth. It has history in it which tells exactly how corrupt mankind is and it also tells what is going on now in the world as does it tell what is yet to come.
As for your other comment about the “bible has been translated and recanted with he said, she said” that comes from people like you who don’t take it seriously as God’s word. To those of us who actually follow Christ Jesus, the Holy Bible taken as it is, reading it without any bias as to what it says as a whole, it is consistent throughout its whole message.
Also, the Holy Bible is confirmed over and over again by scientific discoveries and has never been any honest scientific discovery which has proven it wrong.
So I suggest that before you talk about something in which you clearly don’t know and understand, that you do some honest seeking of the truth before you type or speak on a subject.
My prayer to God for you Patricia is for your salvation.
"Also, the Holy Bible is confirmed over and over again by scientific discoveries and has never been any honest scientific discovery which has proven it wrong. "
Okay, give me three scientific discoveries that have *proved* the Bible to be true.
And, while you're at it, can you outline the science of:
a) Turning water into wine (John 2:1-11)
b) Bringing dead people back to life (Not only did Jesus come back to life, but he raised at least 3 others from the dead. One of them, Lazarus, had been dead for 4 days and was beginning to stink.).
c) Walking on water (Matt 14:22-33, Mark 6:45-52 and John 6:15-21
Alistair, have you ever noticed how some people, like you for example, don’t understand the meaning of simple words and change what was written to be out of context? This type of people do it to confuse others and are in their own way confused too because they don’t honestly read what is written by the author, they read into it with a personal bias.
I did not say that scientific discoveries as you put it, “have *proved* the Bible to be true.” I said, “the Holy Bible is confirmed over and over again by scientific discoveries and has never been any honest scientific discovery which has proven it wrong.” One cannot *prove* that neither Darwin Evolution is true or the if Holy Bible is true; one can only look at the evidence to *confirm* which matches it.
Physics, Gravity, Logic and Reason, the universe expanding,the existence of comets, a human rib taken out of someone will grow back within two to three months as long as its periosteum is left intact, Human Genome Project all *confirm* the Bible.
Alistair, the answer to the following questions (water into wine; Jesus coming back to life after death, walking on water) you have to understand that Jesus is God and God created everything (including science) so these things are no big deal for God to do.
There are things out there which mankind does not know and which mankind will never know because you and I are finite in our knowledge and understanding and we have no means of our own in which to ever know everything. Only God is infinite and knows everything because God created everything.
Alistair, to help you better understand your worldview, you need to read this article: Beyond Doubt – Christianity is True – Atheism is Falsehttp://bit.ly/5vtvvF
As a science major I DO understand what I am talking about. What the hell are you? A religion major, a science major??? Or are you…what's that? Not any of those??? Sigh… Kettle calls the pot black, typical Christian thing to do.
Patricia, you don’t know what you are talking about and it shows when you state false statements like you did in your comment.
"Alistair, have you ever noticed how some people, like you for example, don’t understand the meaning of simple words and change what was written to be out of context?"
You religious types really make me laugh.
You assiduously split hairs over the difference between words at one moment when it suits you (like here, with 'confirm'/'prove') but then happily take liberties with them at another moment – like when defending the Bible. E.g. You religious types say 'Thou shalt not kill' actually means 'Thou shalt not murder', or the unicorns in the Bible (Job 39:9–12) are actually rhinos, or wild oxen.
It's so funny.
And then the title of the website you mention '… Christianity is True – Atheism is False'. If that's not a case of '… not understanding the meaning of simple words' I don't know what is.
Atheism is not a belief system. It is the complete absence of belief. Therefore it cannot be false. You religious types can't understand that, can you?
Shall I explain it simply? Atheism is no more a belief system than not raising pigs is a farming system. It is no more a belief than not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Okay … okay … 'confirm' is not quite the same as 'prove'. I concede you that.
Now, give me 3 scientific discoveries that confirm the Bible. If it's been done 'over and over again' that should be easy.
It is clear Alistair that you either don’t read well or you skipped over it briefly because I listed more than three *confirmations” in my first reply to you:
Physics, Gravity, Logic and Reason, the universe expanding, the existence of comets, a human rib taken out of someone will grow back within two to three months as long as its periosteum is left intact, Human Genome Project all *confirm* the Bible.
Also, if you were to actually read that article I pointed you to, you’d get more information on scientific confirmations of the Bible.
Please note: Atheism – An Atheist's Religious Denial of Faith in Their Beliefshttp://bit.ly/3M2IGR
what ever
Ye and the gay male couple:Steven Monjeza, 26, and his partner Tiwonge Chimbalanga, 20, were arrested December 2009 at their engagement party in Malawi ,Africa(Madonna adoption country). Despite their lawyer arguing that the relationship wasn't hurting anyone, the judge handed down a hefty 14-year prison sentence for "unnatural acts and gross indecency"……..I just can't imagine the horror in this sentence and that the UN or the powers that be, has not done more to save these guys from Africa. Back here in Australia, my gay male partner and I who have been living together for 10 year in Sydney live freely…….does anyone else feel uncomfortable?
For someone who is soooooo particular over others' use of words (getting your knickers in a twist over me using 'prove' instead of 'confirm') you are remarkably loose with them yourself.
Physics is not a 'scientific discovery'. Nor are logic and reason. Nor the existence of comets. Physics is an area of science. The existence of comets is a phenomenon. In fact, most of the things you list are phenomena.
But let that pass.
Let's just choose one of them … gravity, for example. How does the existence of gravity confirm the Bible? (But choose another if you're more comfortable with that).
Alistair, phenomena you say and the Bible explains that they are parts of God’s invisible attributes (Romans 1:20-32). The “scientific discovery” is the Laws of Physics, Law of Gravity, etc. Logic and Reason gives being to be able to actually perform science for scientific discoveries.
Colossians 1:17 explains that Christ is before all things, and by Him all things consist. The Greek verb for consist (sunistao) means to cohere, preserve, or hold together. Extrabiblical Greek use of this word pictures a container holding water within itself. Consider the alternative; if gravity ceased for one moment, instant chaos surely would result. All heavenly objects, including the earth, moon and stars, would no longer hold together. Everything would immediately disintegrate into small fragments.
Hebrews 1:3, declares that Christ upholds all things by the word of His power. Uphold (phero) describes the sustaining or maintaining of all things, including gravity. The word uphold in this verse means much more than simply supporting a weight. It includes control of all the ongoing motions and changes within the universe.
Hey!
Wow!
That is truly amazing. The force of gravity described so brilliantly and succinctly by Christ Himself in two small words. My eyes have been opened. It's so exciting.
Can you also point me to where He describes the other three fundamental forces of nature – Electromagnetism, the Strong Nuclear Force and the Weak Nuclear Force?
I mean, if He's described gravity he must have described these too. After all, they are fundamental forces of nature – as fundamental as gravity. So why would he leave them out?
You know, if we look hard enough in the Bible we must be able to find the answer to the problem of unifying these four forces, too – the Unified Field Theory. The all those silly scientists at CERN will have wasted their money on their massive particle accelerator.
Let's get searching God's Word!
This was written by Gerald del Campo.
Hey Gospel Today,
YOUR COMMENTS PROVED MY POINT!
AND WHILE, AS FAR AS YOU ARE CONCERNED, EVERY RESPONSE TO YOU IS A TOTAL WASTE OF TIME, THERE ARE OTHERS WHO MAY LEARN FROM THEM.
Aside from your programming showing as you say things which are both logically and factually wrong, your comments on the Bible and your views on me prove you would not know the truth were it a sharp pointed cactus you sat on while naked.
Like your totally IDIOT comments about nothing in your childish book of MYTHS, (which were mostly STOLEN from other religions) not being PROVEN wrong.
Does the sun go around the earth?
Does the earth have 4 corners?
Is the earth the center of the universe?
Why are there Atheists? Because YOUR god FAILS to provide sufficient proof of he/she/it’s existence. Only I am sure your poor little brain washed programmed mind is to befuddled to be able to realize such as simple and obvious fact.
FYI, it is the SAME reason MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS of FORMER Christians are NOW Atheists!
Those who are insecure & have no self confidence are not paratroopers or deep sea divers as I was. They do not stop crimes and put their life on the line for others. (A few months ago, I stopped a crime in progress and I am 75 years old)
People with low self esteem do not know they read at double the speed of most college grads, have listening skills which are four times better than most, are much more experienced and knowledgable than are most my age (75) much less those younger than I.
Nor do those with low self esteem know they are smarter than over 97.5% of the world or have been tested to use their IQ nearly double as effectively as most.
So CHILD, the FACTS ARE. I have A LOT of Self Confidence, HIGH self esteem and I am certainly not insecure.
IF your god exists, he/she/it is either NOT All Powerful and All Knowing as well as being considerate, caring and kind OR he/she/it really is totally INCOMPETENT!
YOUR mickey mouse, make-believe god is not one which I would not even accept as a friend much less worship.
People who are insecure and who have no self confidence do not use their full names to post in forums.
Nor are we Cowards who HIDE behind some screen name AS YOU DO!
hey Gospel Today.
I love your arguments……I am completely convinced.
I am a surgeon, and I was completely astonished by the fact that ribs grow back within 2-3 months (provided that the periosteum is left intact of course).
Can you kindly refer me to the appropriate article in the scientific literature so I can share this great medical breakthrough with my colleagues?
Alistair, if only you were being honest…
Neil C. Reinhardt, you seem to be trying to prove that you are “good” with your telling me how you’ve supposedly stopped some sort of crime. Whose definition of “good” do you use, Neil?http://ht.ly/1QWVH
Does it ultimately matter if you are a “good” person or not? Only if God really exists and will judge you after your death does it certainly matter. So if God really does exist, shouldn’t you understand what being a “good” person means?
If you honestly want proof of God’s existence, you are going about it all wrong:http://ht.ly/1QWWY
And Neil, if you were to read any of the links that I’ve given to you in the past or here, you’d know my name:http://ht.ly/1QWYV
@issomize a human rib taken out of someone will grow back within two to three months as long as its periosteum is left intact.
http://www.scoliosis.org/resources/medicalupdates...
I’d not want you to do any surgery on me with you not knowing this fact of a rib growing back.
what you are aluding to is simply wound and/or bone healing. the liver also regenerates, which was an observation as old as the ancient greeks. this process is driven by stem cells.
now kindly tell me how that pertains to your arguement that a human being can be molded from a rib.
Yes, the liver regenerates and is another example of God’s great design in our being.
No @issomize I am not alluding to simply a bone healing, I am talking about a new rib forming and being as strong as the original.
Per the article:
Q: When the ribs grow back after surgery, do they actually form new rib bone and reconnect to the spine, and how long does it take for this to happen?
A: Yes, the ribs do grow back, forming a new rib. This takes approximately two to three months.
Q: Is the new growth as strong as the original rib?
A: The new rib, once it is completely healed, will be as strong as the original rib.
Obviously @issomize you are not involved with Facial Reconstructive Surgery because during it, they often use a person’s rib to help reconstruct their face after an accident. They use the rib because it will grow back.
GospelToday,
GospelToday,
I really struggle to understand your absolute belief in a book written by men. The book actually conflicts with itself several times over and positions certain things as FACT (Adam & Eve) when most priests I have spoken to now consider this a parable. Just to confirm, are you one of those who still believe that A&E actually happened? Also, I still do not understand how you can possibly say that gravity proves the existance of God – surely this is a ludicrous leap of logic. My family – father, grandfather, uncle and great uncle are all priests or bishops and I frequently have discussions with them to try to get a handle on what I believe myself.
They are all open to discussion and each of them have said that although they believe in God and Jesus Christ, they are open to the fact that they do not understand everything and that the bible is definitely wrong in many places which is understandable as written by many different people. While they do not agree with Richard Dawkins, they all really appreciate his honesty about his (lack of) belief and they use it to question their own understanding of the testaments. To be honest, the more I read and learn from a variety of books across many religions, the more I am tending to agree with the majority of what Mr Dawkins says. The main issue is that Christians must have a 'faith' or as Mr Dawkins & my family would agree ' a leap of faith'. I am not willing to take that leap of faith blindly as most of my family have done.
As years progress, I see more which challenges the bible than confirms it. My father is a very intelligent man, extremely articulate and an excellent debater which makes for very interesting evenings of discussion but neither he nor I have ever turned the discussion into an argument, each understanding that we have different beliefs and understanding that neither of us know the 'truth' for sure. I appreciate the discussion above but you appear to have an 'absolute' belief in some things which, I'm sorry to say, border on arrogance. I think that you have lost the ability (or desire) to challenge your beliefs, to question the bible, the quran or any other belief system. I can not blame you for this as I have spoken to many people, Hindus, Christians & Muslims and in most cases, the most religious of these people are absolutely insistent that they are totally right and will not consider the other's arguments.
It is interesting that currently, after many years of forcing people to be 'christian' (crusades, state sanctioned religion etc), only 33% of the world actually now are. So, 67% of the world do NOT believe in Christianity which was really the catalyst for me (once a devout Christan) to start looking around and investigating why. Even if we take the 33%, we are talking about Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, Pentecostal, Anglican, Evangelical, Jehova's Witnesses, Quakers etc. etc. – many of which do not agree with each other at all and are only included in the group 'Christian' to 'bump up the numbers' as far as I can see.
Again, let me finish by saying thanks – I think that your arguments are interesting in the main but would challenge you to challenge yourself – please try to stop accepting blindly just because your momma told you so …. and I know …. my momma told me so too.
Chris, per your stats:
Jesus said He is the “way, and the truth, and the life” and that no one comes to the Father but through Him (John 14:6) With this statement, Jesus says that he is like a narrow door meaning that only through Him does one get to God.
Jesus said that many would not find the narrow path (which leads to the narrow doorway that leads to life) (Matthew 7:13-14). Jesus also said for you and me to “strive to enter through the narrow door that leads to life” (Luke 13:24).
Per your father, grandfather, uncle and great uncle are all priests or bishops; I take it they are Catholic? Please let them know that it isn’t about them. Read them this short article I wrote: http://findingtruthtoday.org/ItsNotAboutYOU.aspx
All the articles on the link below I wrote and you can either comment about them there or here. There’s an “about me” category if you want to get to know me better. I’m open to hearing from you soon. http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-trut...
Yes, Adam and Eve are our ancestors. In fact, The Human Genome Project came to the same conclusion that only one race of Mankind exists which confirms what the Holy Bible has said all along for thousands of years, that Mankind has a set of common relatives whose names in the Holy Bible are Adam and Eve.
You may want to read my book review on Richard Dawkins' deluded book, "The God Delusion"
Here's the summary of my review of it: http://findingtruthtoday.typepad.com/finding-trut...
That's a huge statement you've made about "I see more which challenges the bible than confirms it." Christ without giving any evidence to back it up!
Chris, no one can "force" anyone to do something that they do not want to do. Following Christ Jesus is a personal choice and not everyone wants to follow Him for whatever selfish reason(s) they have. It is a choice to which only a person makes for one's self and "force" isn't part of it. In fact, if "force" is used, then it is actually called, “coercion” and anyone actually who is “coerced” is not doing it under their own will.
That being said, yes, there were many corruptions and misuses of God’s word. Remember, just because mankind does it, doesn’t mean that God approves of it even if man did it in God’s name.
OK and once again, I find myself discussing religion with someone unwilling to DISCUSS. You state things as fact which are not facts …. "Jesus said that …. "
In your article, you start by saying "I follow Christ Jesus. All other beliefs, gods and religions are purely manmade fictional nonsense". Not at all open minded there. In the next paragraph you say "followers of Christ Jesus are actually taught to test and examine ourselves to see if we are actually in the faith" which is great but they are (obviously) not taught to question and test the actual faith itself.
I'm open to believing in the bible and some of it speaks to me. Also, much of the Quran, some of Vedas and the Talmud. I am not willing however to take that 'leap of faith' which you have done where you automatically dismiss over 70% of the world's thinking as 'deluded' and accept without question that 'Jesus said this' and 'Jesus said that'.
The bible itself is massively contradictory and yet you defend it without consideration.
As for the religious side of my family:
1. No, they are not catholics
2. They know very well that it is not 'about them', thanks very much
3. They were amused by your suggestion that they should forego the many cross-denominational events which they attend to discuss religion in general and instead read your article alone.
Again, the difference is that you are a believer and not a questioner. You title your about me page "If there is the slightest possibility of God existing and that He has sent His only begotten Son Jesus to be your savior from death, wouldn’t it be wise to investigate it for yourself?" which is absolutely right … investigate it, discuss it, challenge it, query it and then make some decisions yourself.
You have not done this – you are not 'investigating' … you are accepting and even worse …. defending completely and without consideration.
You are not the only one of course, there are many examples of people who blindly accept their own version of their own religious text and will not accept alternatives, describing others as you have done as 'deluded' or 'unclean' or 'heretics'. These people are most commonly known as 'religious extremists' and you fall into the same category as those people who believe that if they blow themselves up in the name of their God, that they will have eternal life in heaven. Crazy you may think …. for them, totally, without doubt, FACT.
You are absolutely right – I don't have time to go through everything but on the flipside, find me anything which confirms the stories in the bible with evidence.
and saying that gravity is evidence is just ludicrous.
Yep, I read it and found it less of a critique than a personal attack on the man himself.
Let’s think about this for a moment; Richard Dawkins and many others like him, go on a crusade attacking something they say is a fairytale. How rational would it for someone to express by writing numerous books, speaking at conferences, and making TV appearances all focused on demeaning and attacking the Tooth Fairy?
Chris, I have investigated and have found the truth; God not only exists He loves you and me and He wants us to love Him. Your choice to not love Him is your choice because He gave to you and me free will to make choices for ourselves.
Once you find the truth, you don't just keep it to yourself; you spread the good news (Gospel) and let everyone know about it too so that they can if they choose to do so, find the truth too.
I can tell that you've not read the articles I've written because you think that it is "blind faith" that I believe in and you also think that "religion" is what it is all about. It is neither "blind faith" nor "religion" that it is all about. It is all about God.
Only the Holy Bible is fully true – the Quran, Vendas, Talmud, etc. all contain easily found contradictions. The Holy Bible does have some parts which are difficult to understand yet there are no contradictions as you state within it.
Maybe it is you Chris then who thinks's it is "about them" because that is the way you described them to me.
You Chris mistate me in that I did not tell anyone to "forgo cross-denominational" events to discuss religion in general as you stated. I pointed out to you that "religion" isn't what it is all about. It is all about God.
Why is it that you think "gravity" is ludicrous as evidence?
Chris, I follow the teachings of Christ Jesus and Jesus' teachings do not include "blow themselves up in the name of their God" in fact, Jesus said that we are to love each other and said that love is the greatest commandment.
What kind of evidence do you want Christ which confirms the Bible?
What Chris would you do with evidence confirming the Bible?
The human Genome Project come to the conclusion that only one race of mankind exists …. (enormous leap of logic) therefore Adam and Eve are our ancestors.
Just out of interest, do you believe that dinosaurs existed? That Eve had daughters? That fossils predate Adam and Eve? That the bible (written by fallible men) is a historical truth?
because its just another huge leap of logic. I don't understand exactly how gravity works therefore it must be God's work therefore there must be a God.
Chris, facts are facts and the Bible has said all along that Adam and Eve were our ancestors and that mankind is one race and now science has confirmed it. If you don’t want to accept evidence such as this, then what kind of evidence do you want?
Yes, dinosaurs existed and are actually talked about in the Bible. Yes, Eve had sons and daughters.
It is an manmade assumption that there are fossils that predate Adam and Eve. There are no dating technique that we have which will ever “date” the age of rocks. There are far too many “guesses” which have to be made and these “assumptions” are all based on other “assumptions” which again, makes “dating” rocks a farce. There was also no death prior to Adam and Eve’s fall so there would be no fossils predating them.
The Bible was written by fallible men inspired by God to write the Word of God down for everyone to read. God made sure that these men wrote it down properly and without error. Yes, the Bible is historical truth and it also has very accurate predictions which some are coming to be in our time.
Chris, thousands of years of evidence has confirmed the Holy Bible over and over again and again. Just because you choose to not confirm the evidence of it for yourself doesn’t mean that it isn’t confirmed.
Also, I don’t talk “religion” because “religion” isn’t the truth. Religion actually gets into the way of truth and bogs people down into death and destruction. Stay away from “religion” because it is false teachings.
I am more open minded than you Chris. I actually have researched and sought the truth and have found it. You at this point in your life are more concerned about you being right and me being wrong than you finding the truth.
Why Chris do you think I read, “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins?
Who told you that? Who told you that only the Holy Bible is true? Who provided evidence of this? Why would you think that any of the MANY (and I won't go through them all … you can google it) contradictions in the Bible are due to my own lack of understanding of the true meaning whereas with the other texts, you gladly accept them as contradictions.
"No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions" – I think this is a very valid quote and yet you won't question your beliefs, you only accept them blindly. I'm sorry for you.
Your basis for who or what God is is entirely based on the Bible so twist it however you want to, it's a blind faith.
It’s no huge leap of logic Chris to connect say, “Gravity” to it being one of God’s invisible attributes. To test the Bible, you start with what it says and then you look for evidence to support it. You will find lots and lots of evidence supports the Bible.
Yes and yet your understanding of the bible is different from many others. You are one of those people who have no acceptance of anybody elses opinion or point of view and in that way, you are similar to those extremists who will go so far as to do some crazy things. Once again, we are back to your stating "Jesus said" as some sort of proven, recorded fact ……
I'm not going to post again … I think we know where we are …. you are never going to be open to have a discussion about these things … you are insistent that you and you alone are right. Common arrogance of a religious extremist.
As someone who has not blindly accepted but chosen to question and explore, I wonder what will happen to me if it turns out that you are right when I arrive at the pearly gates. Will God be having one of his 'love everyone' days or will he be a vengeful God. Who know's?
"I have investigated and found the truth"
WOW
Without evidence obviously.
Without any explanation other than 'I just feel it is right'
Without any acceptance that your truth MAY be wrong?
Without the realisation that there are over 3000 religions in the world and yet congrats, you hit the jackpot on your first try.
Scientific evidence, my own research and observations has proven the Holy Bible as true. The evidence is all around Chris. Take the Holy Bible and then look for evidence which confirms it or not. If you honestly seek the evidence, you too will find the Holy Bible true.
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good. (Psalms 53:1)
I do questoin my beliefs, Chris. Each time that I question them, they get confirmed again because more evidence comes in confirming them.
Chris, do you know everything?
Let’s think about this for a moment; you and many others like you, go on a crusade insiting in the historical accuracy of a book written thousands of years ago. How rational is it for you to express by writing numerous books, speaking at conferences, and making TV appearances all focused on trying to proove the existance of the Tooth Fairy?
My faith in Christ Jesus is not blind. Evidence of His love for you and me is all around and I have already pointed out to you some of the scientific evidence. I know exactly what my faith is placed in, Christ Jesus. I know exactly why my faith is placed into Christ Jesus, because he lived a sinless life, suffered and died for my sins, and rose again from death so that I can be with Him.
Chris, is your faith blind or not?
OK, I'm sorry for you. I really hope that one day you can learn to question the world in isolation and see whether what you come up with is confirmed by the bible as opposed to taking the bible as fact as a starting point.
Chris, we are having an open discussion about these things. I am on one side of the discussion and you are on the other side of it. You being a closed minded atheist chooses to overlook the scientific evidences I’ve pointed you to. My knowing the truth keeps me from making the wrong choice of listening to your calling me crazy.
I’m glad Chris, that you’ve not “blindly accepted” because those who “blindly accept” don’t really have the truth… only religion.
No Chris, I did not hit the jackpot on the first try. It took a while as I was stubborn and wanted to make it all about me. The evidence I found along my quest for truth however, made me less and less stubborn and more and more interested in knowing the truth.
Chris, the Tooth Fairy doesn’t exist and there is no evidence of the Tooth Fairy ever existing. God does exist and evidence everywhere points to His existing prior to our universe, now, and forever.
Chris, starting with the Holy Bible and using real scientific methods against it, confirms it over and over again and again.
Why feel sorry for me Chris if God as you say doesn’t exist? Why would you feel for anyone if God doesn’t exist? In fact, if we all came about by random chance as Richard Dawkins and his kind say, how did Logic and Reason come about, by chance? There are too many leaps of faith in atheism for me to place any belief into it and there is no evidence to support atheism.
Don’t feel sorry for me Chris. God exists and I have a personal relationship with Him. I suggest that you turn inward your feelings and question yourself and ask yourself this question: “Do I know everything?” If you think you do know everything, then you think you are a god. If you think you don’t know everything, then the possibility of God existing becomes a reality.
I'm going to sign off now and we'll agree to disagree. I was not calling you crazy but I was saying that some others who have 'total and absolute' faith in their belief will go to some crazy extremes. Hence, my viewpoint that it is important to challenge your beliefs and appreciate others. I do question your linking the scientific evidences to proof of God but I do understand that you feel that you have asked all the questions and been given sufficient answers. I am still not convinced I can take that 'leap of faith' in order to accept the answers.
You ended one comment with 'Do you know everything' and I know that I do not … I just can not be convinced that anyone actually does (yet)
I wish you all the best and am glad that your belief makes you happy. As Dave Allen says 'May your God go with you' and if you don't know Dave Allen, please have a look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk I hope you can see the humour in it.
The bottom line is that fundamentalist religion, as of the sort promoted by @GospelToday in these discussions, is slowly but surely on the way out.
The proponents of fundamentalist religions are fighting like crazy to prevent this, but it's a losing battle.
Why?
Because they have a profound misunderstanding of science.
The Fundies approach is that they have a set of previously-established set of beliefs and they desperately hunt around for evidence to support them. Witness, as an example, @GospelToday's ludicrous statement that the two words 'consist' and 'uphold', are used in the Bible to describe gravity (see his earlier post) and the linguistic contortions he has to go through to achieve this link.
The Fundies also ignore or avoid evidence and awkward questions that go against their belief. Witness, again @GospelToday's avoidance of my question that, if the Bible describes gravity, then where does it describe the other three, equally important, fundamental forces? And if it doesn't describe them, why not? They are equally, if not more, important. Gravity is the weakest force of the 4.
Science works the other way around. It patiently observes, experiments, records phenomena and comes up with theories to explain. Many times these theories are wrong, or have holes in them. But that's how it works and gradually it moves towards the truth.
Read the history of the discovery of the heliocentric solar system for a classic example of this. Who was it who stuck to their unsupported beliefs in the face of increasingly contradictory evidence? Who tried to shut Galileo up with threats of imprisonment and death? Surprise, surprise … it was the Church.
If you were being tried in a court of law for a serious crime you did not commit which would you prefer – a judge who starts out with the belief that you committed the crime, and then seeks evidence to support that belief? Or a judge who demands presentation of all the evidence, for and against, and then decides on the basis of that evidence?
The first is how religion works. The second is how science works.
Hi Allstair and Chris,
As it’s really a total waste of time and energy to argue with a believer as Programmed as this total Religious Robot “GospelToday” is, I was wondering why you do it?
Is it in the hopes a many times more open minded person will read your comments and then join the multi-millions of Former Chriatins who “have seen the light” and become Athiests?
Thanks
Neil
Some Atheists I know say Christians are crazy or stupid or some such thing. When they do this, I inform then theyare in error for the following
reaseons.
A. As MOST Americans Atheists WERE Christians, does it mean they become sane and intelligent. And of course, the answer is NO this is not what happens.
What I submit happens, at least in most cases is the believer reaches a point where they start
questioning their beliefs. Yhe more they learn, the more they question and the same cycle just continues until they figure out religon is a myth, a supestition, a con game with no supporting structure. No Logic or rational thought.
So they end up DE-Programming themselves from the many years of mind conditioning they had received as babies, young children, young adults, etc. etc. until they reached the point of beginning to question.
Of course, just like trained animals, many to most (All?) believers have NO clue they are, and/or were programmed while they are stll programmed. And I think some to many, Atheists finally do come to the realization they really were programmed and they had no clue they were, when they were.
Later,
Neil
You truly are blinded by your ridiculous faith. I feel sorry for you, as do all recovering Christians.
I have it on good authority that Lazarus was known to stink on most days when he was "alive"
Looks like you have the delusion that YOU are God. So: “Do you know everything?” If you think you do know everything, then you are truly deluded. If you are honest and think you don’t know everything, then the possibility of the true God existing becomes a reality.
Well GT, as I am not sure to which post you are referring to in your most recent reply, I submit that as far as myself, I have NEVER said, NOR ever implied, that not in anyway I’am within many LIGHT YEARS of my KNOWING EVERYTHING there is to know.
INTELLIGENT People (sure leaves you out) REALIZE the MORE we KNOW, the more we KNOW how LITTLE we know.
Sadly, you are just another typical programmed Christian Religious Robot spouting your idiot drivel by rote while being so clueless as to believe those of us who are NON-Programmed would even waste our time considering what you said as having any validity at all.
After all, many have BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!
And the odds are very high that some, to many, of us, have forgotten more about your childish superstitious MYTH than you will ever learn.
You Do realize do you not, your MYTH is ONLY ONE of Hundreds of Thousands such myths? That YOUR
“god” is ONLY ONE of TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND NAMED
Gods?
And you have NO MORE PROOF your myth and god are any more real than do the believers of any of other myths and gods.
While the above are FACTS, I am positive you are SO PROGRAMMED, you will feebly attempt to prove the existence of some things which ONLY exists in the minds of their believers.
Niel C. Reinhardt, for someone who just said about yourself that, “that not in anyway I'am within many LIGHT YEARS of my KNOWING EVERYTHING there is to know.” You then proceed to claim that you do know that the one true God described within the Holy Bible is a myth. Please give to me the facts in which you make this claim give proof that God is a myth?
I see that there are many atheist websites and forums around, as well as books, etc.. There seems to be an "Evangelical" zeal to them and their members. Sometimes even more so than a religious person has. Why is this need to waste time ranting and ridiculing out there?
Most folks I talk to, if you ask if they believe in God, will either say "nah", or "well there might be some force out there, but I don't think about it" They just go on their merry way.
I suggest that those so vehemently opposed to religion and to those who believe, have been deeply hurt in their childhood, buy their parents or guardians and the destructive way God was presented.
They say the opposite of love is not hate but apathy I think the apathetic are hard to reach, but a zealous atheist, if convinced, would be the easiest to convert and that they would become a zealot for God. Just my impressions. Ü
Look GT,
I am not going to waste my time arguing with you as as there are not sufficent facts and truth in the entire cosmos w convince a person who will not be convinced no matter is preseneted to them While many people like you are hopeless, there are MILLIONS who were once as PROGRAMMED as YOU are who are NOW Atheists!
SO GO CAREFULLY READ YOUR BIBLE FROM COVER TO COVER AND TAKE NOTES!
So WHY would we Atheists WANT you and ALL other Christians to read your Bible? Simple, so doing is ONE of the MAIN reasons MANY Christians have LEFT the Christian religion top become ATHEISTS!
———-
Well PETER,
In MY case, and in the case OF many Atheists, the reason you give is totally incorrect!
Go Google “DE-Conversersion Stories” and you will find MANY who DISPROVE your “theory”
Neil
Wow, Neil C. Reinhardt, you are correct that, “there are not sufficient facts and truth in the entire cosmos” pointing to God’s nonexistence and that’s because God does exist as you well know yet deny. And you are correct in not arguing with me or anyone for that matter for you have no disproof of God because God exists. All observable evidence points to God.
I agree with you Neil that some people become atheists because they read the bible. Some of these people don’t understand it and don’t want to understand it. While others did understand it and don’t want to be held to its standards and think that if they just choose to not believe in it, that it that God doesn’t exist and thus they think they are not subject to God.
Many more people however become atheists because they just want to do whatever it is that they want to do and don’t care to honestly seek the truth and because of their apathy towards truth, they say God doesn’t exist. (Romans 1:16-32)
"Love the sinner, hate the sin." I see that all the time.
So would you mind explaining how denying two consenting adults of legal age the right to be married by the State (not The Church, which merely conducts a purely optional ceremony) and thus denying them the rights enjoyed by other State-Married couples equates to "loving the sinner".
LOL! so would I!
[...] English version [...]
How at all do you think he his bullying? And is the woman who condemned homosexuality not explicitly putting a certain population down? Which to me, sounds like bullying. You are obvi crazy!!!!
Eric, I agree with you that when someone is condemning homosexuality that it is putting down those people who practice it and that is a kind of bullying. This is the very thing that religious people do. They get into the “religion” instead of following Christ Jesus.
I'm a Christian and find this amusing. God gave us all a sense of humor. Just see this for what it is…(funny whether you agree with the letter or not) and move on. It's really not that serious people. Geesh!
So Ann, you "say" you are a Christian? http://bit.ly/ui3eH
"Some discrepancy"?? The majority of the text of this "letter" is taken verbatim from Season 2, Episode 3 of "The West Wing", written by Aaron Sorkin, with a few additions from who knows where.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD52OlkKfNs http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0745700/
WHAT do you say to these people…. other than God still loves them and hopes they'll come home..
Let them know that Christ came, as the lamb without blemish and was sacrificed for our sin. He eliminated the Mosaic Law (replaced it).
KINDA THE MAIN POINT OF CHRISTANITY… OOPS
try, Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Abomination = 1) a person who is loathsome or disgusting, vicious or vile, disgust ; "his treatment of the children is an abomination"
Nice list…
CHECK THROUGH THE NEW TESTIMENT RATIFIED BY CHRIST
1 Corinthians 6:9
..wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
Ephesians 5:31, …his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
PLUS. PLUS, PLUS keep reading through New Testiment
These type of comments can be a real show stopper….
All that matters is that Christ came, as the lamb without blemish and was sacrificed for our sin. He eliminated the Mosaic Law (replaced it).
Hope that helps… Jeff Giacomini